My two current main problems with the game, some feedback

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

Come on bro, you're just being pedantic for the sake of it at this point

I've seen your other replies in this forum before, you're smarter than that, so I don't buy that you can't see the distinction

Are you seriously, straight face, going to tell me you don't understand the difference between a skill being complete as base and then becoming better through setup x a skill feeling like it has half of what iwas supposed have missing until you attach the obvious package it was designed around?

And "everything feels weak early game" is not really an answer. There is a humongous difference between a skill being weaker early because progression exists, and a skill feeling structurally incomplete until you feed it the exact kind of interaction it was obviously balanced around



I'm not going to keep arguing about the crafting either, we will just agree to disagree. If you really find that qol like this is bad for the game and its players (especially new ones) and not your personal opinion, I really have nothing else to say

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

I’d say I have to massively -1 this thread, especially point 2.

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

Come on bro, you're just being pedantic for the sake of it at this point

I've seen your other replies in this forum before, you're smarter than that, so I don't buy that you can't see the distinction

Are you seriously, straight face, going to tell me you don't understand the difference between a skill being complete as base and then becoming better through setup x a skill feeling like it has half of what iwas supposed have missing until you attach the obvious package it was designed around?

And "everything feels weak early game" is not really an answer. There is a humongous difference between a skill being weaker early because progression exists, and a skill feeling structurally incomplete until you feed it the exact kind of interaction it was obviously balanced around



I'm not going to keep arguing about the crafting either, we will just agree to disagree. If you really find that qol like this is bad for the game and its players (especially new ones) and not your personal opinion, I really have nothing else to say

You still havent answered what you want from firestorm as an example.


This third reply ALSO implies you just want it powerful from the get go.


And my everything is weak early game is weak... because it has to be. Otherwise we need to MASSIVELY buff the campaign.


Thats fine to disagree on crafting and what you consider QOL.

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

You're the one forcing this black and white

A skill can be functional, coherent and worth pressing by itself without being op. Then setup can make it better, smoother, stronger, wider, whatever. That's just normal design

Since you keep asking for a firestorm example, here in simple terms: I want firestorm to feel like an actual skill before infusion, and then infusion should improve it, specialize it further or whatever. The combo should not give it what feels like the basic functionality it should have had already

It just means the floor and the payoff should be separated better

A skill being weak early because progression exists is one thing. A skill feeling functionally awkward is other

So yea, at this point I think you understand my point perfectly fine, you just disagree with it. Which is whatever, we will just agree to disagree here too

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Jideament#2792 wrote:

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

I’d say I have to massively -1 this thread, especially point 2.

Is there even one post in these forums where you agree with what people have given as feedback?

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

You're the one forcing this black and white

A skill can be functional, coherent and worth pressing by itself without being op. Then setup can make it better, smoother, stronger, wider, whatever. That's just normal design

Since you keep asking for a firestorm example, here in simple terms: I want firestorm to feel like an actual skill before infusion, and then infusion should improve it, specialize it further or whatever. The combo should not give it what feels like the basic functionality it should have had already

It just means the floor and the payoff should be separated better

A skill being weak early because progression exists is one thing. A skill feeling functionally awkward is other

So yea, at this point I think you understand my point perfectly fine, you just disagree with it. Which is whatever, we will just agree to disagree here too

Im asking for firestorm since you gave the example.


With your answer for firestorm, it will need a massive nerf to the skill. Its already super powerful with infusions. They just buffed it as well this league.


So I still disagree then. As I dont want them nerfing something because someone doesnt like infusions feeling "required" for a specific skill set.


It ... basically circles back to what I originally said, of someone just wanting more power with little input. "one button"


I think the better question is why are infusions so bad then for you? For this example.

They are hardly intrusive outside of the beginning levels of campaign progression, and youll just not really think about having them if you build properly.

So im seeing maybe a "in theory" or "philisophical" problem with the skill. Rather than anything actually linked to actual gameplay.


Which is fine if thats the case. Thats just a personal taste.

Like it just seems to revolve around you wanting to just press firestorm and thats it. And then infusions should be optional extra damage.

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Jideament#2792 wrote:

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

I’d say I have to massively -1 this thread, especially point 2.

Is there even one post in these forums where you agree with what people have given as feedback?

Yup

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3856395
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3924965
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3913393

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

Spark is functional without cold infusion. It still feels like a real skill by itself, and then cold infusion, fire wall or whatever makes it better

Fireball without fire infusion feels awkward and clunky to the point where it feels like half a skill. Which also brings other skills that become mandatory for the skill to be usable

It's really simple

One is "this combo improves the skill"
The other is "this combo gives the skill what feels like basic stuff it should have had already"

I don't mean fireball should do exactly what it does with infusion, but that it shouldn't feel like shit without it. I'm saying the floor should not feel like garbage just so the payoff can exist

You can point the same issue with too many skills in this game, which for me is indeed an issue. And that's only the skill pairing, I'm not even going to talk about the passives

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

Spark is functional without cold infusion. It still feels like a real skill by itself, and then cold infusion, fire wall or whatever makes it better

Fireball without fire infusion feels awkward and clunky to the point where it feels like half a skill. Which also brings other skills that become mandatory for the skill to be usable

It's really simple

One is "this combo improves the skill"
The other is "this combo gives the skill what feels like basic stuff it should have had already"

I don't mean fireball should do exactly what it does with infusion, but that it shouldn't feel like shit without it. I'm saying the floor should not feel like garbage just so the payoff can exist

You can point the same issue with too many skills in this game, which for me is indeed an issue. And that's only the skill pairing, I'm not even going to talk about the passives

Its the design choice for firestorm. An in general POE

Firestorm is a payoff skill.

Spark is given as a "main attack" at the start of the game.

Same with fireball.

We are most likely (I hope to god) see comet pick up what firestorm does as more of a payoff rather than something you can automate and spam.

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

Spark is functional without cold infusion. It still feels like a real skill by itself, and then cold infusion, fire wall or whatever makes it better

Fireball without fire infusion feels awkward and clunky to the point where it feels like half a skill. Which also brings other skills that become mandatory for the skill to be usable

It's really simple

One is "this combo improves the skill"
The other is "this combo gives the skill what feels like basic stuff it should have had already"

I don't mean fireball should do exactly what it does with infusion, but that it shouldn't feel like shit without it. I'm saying the floor should not feel like garbage just so the payoff can exist

You can point the same issue with too many skills in this game, which for me is indeed an issue. And that's only the skill pairing, I'm not even going to talk about the passives

Its the design choice for firestorm. An in general POE

Firestorm is a payoff skill.

Spark is given as a "main attack" at the start of the game.

Same with fireball.

We are most likely (I hope to god) see comet pick up what firestorm does as more of a payoff rather than something you can automate and spam.

So now we moved from "you want one button gameplay" to "it's a payoff skill by design"

Alright then

If your actual point is just that GGG intentionally wants firestorm to be a payoff skill, then fine, we disagree on that design choice. That is at least a real disagreement

What I was criticizing was exactly this kind of design in the first place. A skill being designed as payoff doesn't automatically make the design good